Concrit: my eyes glazeth over

[flonnebonne]

I'm sure everyone's sick of talking about concrit now (shut up and go do something productive! I tell myself as I type), but I'm gonna add one little thing to the discussion.

Concrit is all wonderful and important, yadda yadda yadda, but I wonder if we should be harping on it so much. It's such a heavy term, and when you discuss it over and over the effect is something like OMG CONSTRUCTIVE! CRITICISM! MUST BE INSIGHTFUL AND NOT LAME! NO PRESSURE THO GUYS! I get the feeling that most people (including me) don't feel very confident in their ability to give good concrit. And even if we could, the fact is that everyone is too busy/lazy to give it on a regular basis (except aiwritingfic, but she's criminally insane). What's worse, even if people do take the time to give concrit it doesn't mean that authors are going to act on the feedback they receive. I mean, Ai gave me feedback on my first blind_go fic a year and a half ago and I still haven't made changes to the fic. And I specifically asked her for comments! I'm a terrible person, I know, and not everyone is as lazy as me...but I think this kind of thing is bound to happen.

I think concrit is...inefficient. When an author posts a fic, they've probably already thought hard on it, ironed out the prose, made it all nice and pretty and (hopefully) spell-checked. Having someone tell you "I think you need to cut this entire scene" after you've already invested so much time on it--that's pretty heart-wrenching (almost as heart-wrenching as LJ eating a long post, but I digress). I think it make more sense to give lots of suggestions to the author at the idea-generation and draft stages, rather than after a fic is finished (I'm assuming here that people actually do drafts). I guess that's called beta-reading, huh? Or editing, if you want to be old school.

I know that some people have beta readers, but not everyone does. I certainly don't. And yes, beta-ing and concrit are different things, with different consequences. I'm just saying that maybe we should stop worrying so much about the latter and worry more about the former. They're both time-consuming. They're both rather unlikely to happen if they aren't happening already. But I think people are more willing to make changes to a fic at the beta stage, rather than the I'm-done-the-fic-just-let-it-die-stage.

I'm not suggesting we all start pairing off with beta readers and having orgasmic literary experiences in our own little corners of the internets (not that there's anything wrong with that). What I'm saying is, let's have literary orgies instead! As in, toko's idea to create an all-purpose anon community for Hikago might be kind of cool. A low-pressure space where people can gain experience and confidence in giving useful feedback. Or just get out of the habit of only saying positive things. Or just flail a lot. IN ALL CAPS. I'm sure the whole thing is going to be rife with drama because anon things always are, but maybe it'll be fun and useful too. Social experimentation GO! Er, provided the comm actually happens.

Comments

[elfiepike.livejournal.com]

i definitely think that the habit of posting and saying ~CONCRIT PLS~ is inefficient; most people, once something gets posted to a community, really just want to read finished things. concrit is for a drafted stage; beta-reading is for the ready-to-post stage. you know? anyway. IN ORDER WORDS: HEAR HEAR.

[flonnebonne]

I think we're using the terms a bit differently here (concrit and beta), but basically, yeah!

I rambled on for a bit to wednesdayschild about posting on the internet at
http://flonnebonne.livejournal.com/45505.html?thread=321473#t321473. But geez, you're so much more concise than me. You basically summed up my whole argument in a couple sentences.

[troisroyaumes]

Yes, exactly! I definitely suck at giving concrit. But toko's idea sounds interesting, and at the very least, it'll keep me thinking about writing.

[flonnebonne]

"Thinking about writing" is definitely not one of my strong suits. It'll probably be good for me to participate. But, argh, JLPT.

[wednesdayschild.livejournal.com]

Hmm, see, I don't think that concrit is really the same sort of thing as beta-reading. During the writing process, you have maybe one or two people who will look over your work, help you out with certain parts, and so on. These are your beta-readers.

However, once you've actually decided, 'OK, this fic is AS FINISHED AS I WANT IT TO BE,' and posted it to your LJ/mailinglist/communities, and you ask for concrit, you're inviting people who haven't seen your drafts, or looked at earlier versions with a critical eye, to give their fresh thoughts. What's also worth noting is that concrit isn't just to help you to look at your work and see what could have been changed, or worked out differently--it is also there to help you in future works. It's not the case that people should only look at unfinished work and offer criticism; rather, it's just as valid to critique a finished, published work. The writer can then take the comments into consideration for future works, or even redrafts.

If you look, for example, at an academic text, it is essential to consider the edition from which you are working/quoting/whatevering, because no matter how much the author thought (at the original time of publication) that their work was complete or perfect, or so on, in 99% of cases they discover (from what boils down to 'concrit') that there was a flaw in their argument; that they missed something crucial; or, heck, even that there were some mundane errors that were missed on the first forty sweeps through.

I have later edition philosophy books which are filled with extra papers and arguments arose from critiques of the early editions (in some cases, the critiques themselves are published). These are not books that were published while the author felt that they were incomplete--in some cases, they were written and critiqued over a decade before publication--but once they were opened to a wider audience, the received comments spurred the authors to add appendices, new prefaces, or even change the text itself.

I don't at all mean to disparage the beta-reading process at all. I think that in all cases, having someone else read through your work (at whatever stage) is beneficial. Some people choose not to use a beta-reader, and that is of course their prerogative (because, hey, we all write for fun here), but I cannot think of any serious writers, academic or otherwise, who would publish without editing (or, in most cases, who would be able to publish without editing!). (And those writers who kick up a fuss about editing their work are reviled by publishers. My sister works in publishing, and often tells me tales of which authors are most hated by their editors.)

So, this is a very long and rambly comment. Basically, beta-readers, yay! concrit, also yay! but concrit =/= telling you to go back and change the text, but also giving you information about your writing that you can take with you and use in the future!

Long rambly comments for the win!

[flonnebonne]

Using concrit to improve your future writing = very good point that I had not considered. I do feel, however, that if you don't apply the concrit to the fic in question, you aren't getting the most out of it (this feeling is based on the concrit Ai gave me which I still haven't done anything about...). It's one thing to read concrit, and sort of nod and go "uh huh, that's true, I'll keep that in mind for the future"...and it's quite another thing to get down and dirty with the fic and try to fix it. Some fics will probably not be worth fixing, truth be told. But the ones that are worth fixing...how often do people fix them? Internet fandom is very different from academic process. If something's not new, people tend not to read it. And if no one's reading it anymore, a lot of authors tend not to care as much.

I don't know. Internet "publishing" (god, why do I have to put it in quotation marks) gives us so much control over our writing--we can revise it forever and ever and ever. But because it's so easy, and there's so much of it, people are only interested (or able to keep up with) the new stuff. It really is a different environment. And I think that's part of the reason serious concrit doesn't come along too often. Fics are easy come, easy go. The amount of care and work that goes into a book can't compare. (Yes, there are tons of books being published nowadays, and the standards of editing and reviewing are way down, but at least they have those things)

Basically, I think what I'm saying is that increasing the amount of beta-ing seems more realistic than getting more people to give concrit. And--this is going to sound kind of snotty--if the majority of people don't have their work beta-ed (including me!), why should they get the benefit of concrit? It's a LOT of work to give concrit. Beta-ing is a ton of work too, but at least you know that the person receiving it will actually do something with it.

And

[flonnebonne]

Oh yeah, I totally sympathize with your sister. I used to work in the marketing department of a publishing house, and I heard all the stories about fussy authors from the editorial department upstairs. And then those authors would start working with OUR department wheh it came time to market the book...

[love]

Ai gave me feedback on my first blind_go fic a year and a half ago and I still haven't made changes to the fic. And I specifically asked her for comments!
This is how I know people don't like what I say and therefore pretend I never said what I said. ^_~ *loves you, snuggles*

Having someone tell you "I think you need to cut this entire scene" after you've already invested so much time on it--that's pretty heart-wrenching
Talk to ontogenesis. She still repeats the story of how I read 6000 words of one chapter and said, "No, you need to throw all of this away." XD

I am needs a thoughtful icon

[flonnebonne]

But I totally agreed with the things you said! I just don't feel particularly attached to that fic, and therefore can't get up the energy to fix it. Maybe once I'm done with the JLPT...

Poor Jenny! Or maybe, lucky Jenny! She has an honest beta reader!

Hm, did you tell her to throw out those 6000 words because of the writing or the ideas? Or a bit of both? Was it something that could have been caught earlier? I know Jenny generally outlines her fics very carefully, and isn't one of those people who makes up all her ideas as she goes along.

Re: I am needs a thoughtful icon

[love]

It was the Desynch chapter where she wrote in Akira POV for the first time. I disagreed with the choice of POV and also with some of the writing, but we compromised and worked out something where she could keep the chapter and I felt better about letting her post it. XD

(ETA: Not catchable at the time--she'd written them without beta input. ^_^)

Re: I am needs a thoughtful icon

[flonnebonne]

See, Jenny should always, always ask permission for every little thing from her all-wise, all-knowing beta. (btw don't show this to her)

Beta-ing is a hard thing, isn't it? I guess there's bound to be disagreements. And over-communication or under-communication.

Re: I am needs a thoughtful icon

[love]

XD If she reads this comment thread I disclaim all responsibility. (She doesn't have to, and she shouldn't be like me. That was just a rare instance, but it was rather shocking for both of us!)

XD Oh, always. Jenny and I seem to have a workable arrangement going by dint of being in the same city, but once she goes back things will change, I guess... T_T

Re: I am needs a thoughtful icon

[flonnebonne]

She probably won't read it, and anyway I'm not anywhere near her so I'm okay. :D

Hm, do you think you might continue to beta by skype or whatnot? I guess it's up to her.

Re: I am needs a thoughtful icon

[love]

*laugh* Not sure. I mean, we could try that, but she might be _really_ busy once she starts law school and won't have time for me.